Annoyed & sad day 3

Someone close to me had an abortion this morning. I have never been this emotionally involved with this type of situation and it really affected me more than I thought it would. I cried and felt nauseous.

The hard part is that we talked about the baby, when it was due, whether she wanted a boy or girl, she seemed excited and happy. It was real.

The baby was 4 months along and I made the mistake of looking up its image and the description of its progress. Even though I have always supported a right to choose, I can't help but thinking she is killing a human.

The fetus is also developing at warp speed; by now, all its major organs are complete. In addition, its bones are growing stronger and its muscles longer. Its reflexes also are sharpening up—it can now swallow, kick and execute an occasional somersault with relative ease.

She is young, only 21 and having relationship problems with the father. The baby was likely to be destined for a hard life. Probably would have abused drugs and alcohol like the mother does. I'm torn on how I view abortion now that it's up close and personal. I feel hypocritical, I have always scoffed at the people fighting against the right to choose, BUT, I understand their point.

I believe that any woman that has an abortion will be affected the rest of her life.

What are your thoughts on abortion?


Anonymous said...

Why is adoption never an option? These women who have abortions are selfish. And so are 15 year old girls that keep their babies.

allicat said...

I'm so sorry to hear about your friend and her feeling the need for an abortion - and for the pain you're experiencing as a result :(

I was always completely opposed to abortion, until the day i thought I was pregnant and couldn't bear the thought of having another child. I loved and wanted the two I have - but couldn't handle any more than that.

I was married, I was unhappily married, we were pretty broke - I KNEW I didn't want more children (and had known that since age 21, but my damned OB had refused to tie my tubes after 2nd baby saying I was too young to make the decision)... I had an IUD, and we used other protection as well. But I was very late on my period - and believed I was pregnant.

I was wracked with pain, grief, fear.... I did NOT want another baby - emotionally was not equipped to have one. And yet certainly could not, being married and mormon, having "given up" a baby once born into that situation...

In my mind, my options were either suicide or abortion. All the judgement I had previously felt about abortion went out the window as I realized we are never in a position to judge another person's choice on this matter.

Fortunately, mother nature arrived a couple of days later and I was spared the choice of ending the pregnancy or ending my life....

But ever since, I am totally pro choice. Certainly adoption is preferable - but I understand that there are situations in which abortion may be the best choice for both the mother - and for the potential child (let that spirit be born to another mother : )

I do agree that abortion has life long impact on the woman who had it - I have learned that more than one friend of mine has had one in their long past and have had discussions with them about it - but I still believe that women should have the right to make that choice. These friends all agree to this day that it was the best decision at the time... even though it caused them pain/grief/guilt, it was the choice they needed to make for themselves at that time.

Anonymous said...

are you kidding. You can be married and morman and give the baby up if you are not able to raise it. Killing it is not okay.
I think the 21 year old should have given the baby to a family who would have loved it. Many can not have children of their own and this is heart breaking!!!!
She is selfish!!!!!!!!

Erica said...

I understand abortion in extreme cases like when the mother's life is at risk or instances of rape. But being young and getting pregnant accidentally and then killing the fetus because you want to break up with the father? No.

This situation, and I know the girl my mom is talking about, completely and undeniably selfish. She saw the pregnancy as an inconvenience; so instead of giving the baby to a loving family she did this.

That picture of the fetus makes me nauseous. I saw this girl recently and congratulated her on her baby and she was showing. I'm totally disgusted by her choice.

Chris said...

I, too know exactly who you are talking about. This was a way out for her because she didn't want to be inconvenienced, although she is definitely in no place to be a mother right now. She could have given it up for adoption--although I can see with her history that child having problems for the rest of it's life. So there were no easy answers there.

This makes me ill too. Really ill. I didn't even think it was legal to have one when you are that far along. But that tells you what I know on the subject.

Allison, I was in a similar situation as you, except I wasn't even married. My parents didn't even know the extent of my relationship with who I was dating. I was in that clinic,about 21 years old, panicing, deciding what the hell to do, thinking of suicide, and lo and behold, my period came. I wept and ran out of there like the wind. So I have no place to judge anyone. But. I think there is almost always another option than abortion unless the mom's life is at risk or it's a nonconsensual situation.

I'm going to call you. I can't believe this. I'm so sorry.

Ashley Rae said...

I always get a sick feeling in my stomache when I discuss this topic. I do NOT agree with abortion. I believe that it is just taking away a baby's chance at life. However, I do agree that a woman should be able to choose. It is her life, her body and her own feelings she has to deal with.

That being said, I believe there should be restrictions in place. I think that it should be illegal after a certain stage- maybe after the first trimester...? The mother should know by then (most likely) whether or not abortion is an option for her. After that, the baby needs to be carried to term.

Also, I'm sure that there are a FEW mothers who just think abortion is some sort of birth control- and might have 3 or 4 abortions. There should be a restriction saying you can only have 1 abortion. (Except in instances of rape/incest.)

I think that if the girl is an adult, mentally, physically and financially stable (as much as can be expected), then there's no reason she shouldn't have the baby and keep it.

In situations where the mother has no money, isn't well enough to take care of the baby, it would be born into an unsafe environment, or just doesn't want the baby, then adoption would be the best option. In my opinion.

I'm not here to judge other people. They make their own choices and have to suffer with the guilt/consequences that follow.

Sorry about your friend... it's really tough when it's someone close to you.

allicaqt said...

Anonynous, perhaps you could be married and mormon and give up a child, but it would not have been an option for me. No way my spouse would have agreed - the torment, guilt, pressure, shame that would have been piled on from family, friends and local church authorities would have made it impossible.

Fortunately I did not end up having to make that decision in the end, but having the experience gave me an insight into the mind/emotion of those who may choose abortion.

After going through that, I can't and won't judge anyone on their choice.

Michelle said...

There is just no easy answer. I thought I was pregnant once, at a very inconvenient time in my life, and the thought crossed my mind. I doubt I would have gone through with it, but thank God I didn't have to because as it turned out I wasn't pregnant. I do understand the absolute complete fear that enters ones mind of "what in the hell am I going to do?" I still would never take away anyone's choice, but it is something I never could do.

Anonymous said...

Hey allishat you are the epitome of selfishness. All your reasons for not being able to keep a baby were all about you! What about the baby and giving it up to a happy (rich) couple. Shame would have passed but you would never forget being a murderer. I have an idea, why don't you go shoot yourself. I know, I am judgemental.

allicat said...

Yes, you are : ) You're also a total chickenshit. It's so easy to spout venom and judgment of others when you hide behind your anonymity.

Thankfully I didn't have to actually make the choice - and, frankly, don't know what it would have ultimately been (probably having/keeping the baby and having an emotional breakdown as a result) but suicide was definitely on the table. Shooting myself wasn't an option, but some other, far more painless method of death definitely was.

Perhaps it was selfishness, perhaps self preservation, knowing my emotional limitations. All I know is that I felt a desperation, hopelessness and helplessness that I've never experienced before or since. I'd say it pushed me to the brink of a mental breakdown - and in my book that counts as "health of the mother."

Chris, I'm sorry you went through something similar :( Until someone has felt that verging-on-insanity desperation, they just can't fathom why someone would even consider an abortion.... but once you have, perspectives change.

Frankly, I'm glad I had the experience - frightening as it was (being that I ended up NOT being pregnant/having to make the decision). It has given me far more empathy for women in this situation, and given me pause at passing judgement on others' personal choices.

Kristin said...

Wow -- I have lots of thoughts on this, having seen it from a lot of different sides. And I can tell you that with age and experience my views have shifted somewhat.

First I've got to say that I am totally disgusted by this idiot "anonymous" for more reasons than twelve. Grow up, would you? Yet, who the hell cares was some fool who is too insecure in their position to say their name even thinks. Just posting under the "anonymous" mask says volumes about you, dear.

I believe that sometimes keeping a baby is selfish. I think that sometimes having an abortion is selfish. I even believe that sometimes giving away a baby is selfish. The possible scenarios are as endless as the reasons one choice or another are bad, or best under the circumstances.

It seems that giving a baby life would always be the best choice. However, I may be very much in the minority here, but the truth is this: Sometimes I think death can be kinder than life. I know of girls who were adopted and terribly abused by their adoptive parents. That's not a life I want, would want for them, or for my own child. Sometimes, adoption may not be such a great option. When you place a baby up for adoption, you're very much hoping for the best for the child, but it is such an unknown...

And for those who believe we have souls and exists beyond or before this life... Well, seems to me that just maybe that baby will get another chance at life, if not given this one... Not that I would want to use that as an excuse to be aborting right an left, but perhaps it isn't killing as much as postponing or redirecting... who knows.

Having been a girl who was a pregnant teen... Who decided to go through with the nightmare, suffer the HUGE and pretty much irreversible damage that the situation and the way I was treated by others did to my self esteem, and then at the last minute was persuaded to marry the baby's father... I have some experience here. I spent months in school with other girls who were either keeping their babies or placing them for adoption - I heard lots of stories and saw lots of view points. I know of several girls who have had abortions, and there is a big price to be paid there. None of these conclusions are good.

Looking back now, would I make a different choice if given the opportunity. Yes. I would. Seeing what it has done to me and how things have gone for my daughter, I would do things differently.

I believe there should be restrictions on when abortion can be performed. And I really would like the reason a woman has one to never be just because it's more convenient than living with the consequences of your actions. But again, possible situations and scenarios are so endless, and there is often so much we do not see, I wouldn't want to make a judgment, and those people who do "uh, anonymous..." are frightening.

I'm really sorry about your friend and the choice she has had to make. I am sad that it will affect her and those who care about her for the rest of her life.

Baby Drake said...

That makes me so sad. I have a friend who was told recently that she would never be able to have kids, so they'll be starting the long road to adoption. I wish girls that find themselves in those unfortunate circumstances could step outside themselves and their hard situation, and help enrich the lives of others who would gladly take that child.

How sad that she thought that was her best option.

I'm sorry you have to go through that Michelle, I can't imagine being in your position right now.

Kaylyn said...

Ashley - I couldn't agree more with what you had to say. I am pro choice to a certain point in the pregnancy, and I agree with her first trimester statement. I also very strongly agree that there should be a limit of one allowed {unless of rape, or incest}. The women who get an abortion frequently just as a form of birth control make me sick.

Anonymous - I couldn't agree more with Allicat. You are a chickenshit. It's easy to say all of the mean and hurtful things in the world if no one knows who you are. I think that Allicat is very courageous for sharing her story, and being honest. Many people in her situation wouldn't share that story, and would just pretend like it never happened. I also think that you are a very closed minded person, and you need a serious wake up call. Life is not all hearts and flowers like you think it is. What gives you the right to judge someone else's choices?

Allicat - I respect you so much for your incredible honesty, and my heart breaks for you that you had to fight those feelings. I think you are a wonderful friend, and I am so glad to know you. {well kind of know you :)} There are many women that I know who have been in your shoes, and contimplated the same decisions you did. I can honestly tell you that I would feel the same way in that situation. Like I said before, I am pro choice to a point, and I cannot say that I wouldn't consider it myself even now. Today is my fifth anniversary, but we are in no place {financially, or mentally} for a child.

Michelle & Erica - I am sorry that you are having a hard time with this. I do think that four months is too far along for abortion. I hope that you can both find comfort in each other to get through this. :(

Kristin said...

Reading over my comments it kind of sounds like I am anti-adoption, which I am not.

I believe I failed to say that up until the day after my daughter was born (at which time I was persuaded to marry her father) I had made arrangements to place her for adoption. That had been my intent all along. I elected to do that rather than abort.

I do believe it is a good option. But also is an unknown.

Kate said...

Wow - I love your blog and never comment but this time I had to. I am 5 months pregnant. I looked at that baby you posted and mine moved at that exact moment.

I am disgusted at the decision. I just can't even imagine aborting a BABY at 4 months. I have close family that tried for a family - they just adopted their second little one - both of their children were from young mothers (not the same mother) that were still with the father... I think abortion is selfish. It's a life that is ending.

Sorry - I could go on and on. I respect some of the comments, although I do not agree. I can't say I blame you for how you feel.

Kaylyn said...

I find it incredibly interesting that Kate disagrees with abortion, but can still play nice and have a respectful adult conversation about how she feels on the subject. I think it speaks volumes for her character that she can get almost the same point across without being so harsh, and judgemental. Not once did she tell someone to kill themself. Not to mention, she gave her name.

Anonymous should take a few lessons from her.

Michelle said...

I suppose part of the bottom line is, as with anything, we can't judge other people, it never does any good. This 21 year old is scared, feels helpless, feels like for her it is her only choice.

If I have learned anything in my 48 years, it's that I really try hard to approach difficult situations with love or at least empathy or at the very least a little understanding. If I can't do any of those things, then I usually keep my mouth shut until I can speak and not sound like a vitriolic idiot.

Not to seem trite, but a little love really goes a long way, hatred or not being able to forgive will only eat you alive.

This is a decision she will have to live with the rest of her life. I hope one day, she will be able to forgive herself.

allicat said...

Well said, Kaylyn. (And thanks for your comments about me sharing my experience... )

Kristin - thanks for sharing your personal experience too.

I agree that (other than exceptions for health of the mother) abortions should be limited to the first trimester.

And my hope would be that women would choose other options besides abortion. However, I believe it is very important that they do have the choice.

I also think that much of the hostility and disagreement on the issue stems from basic differences in belief when life begins - when an embryo becomes a "person."

While I recognize that many believe it happens at conception, I personally believe it happens when tje fetus becomes viable - can survive outside the womb... prior to that it is a potential person. Which is not at all to minimize the love, care and importance of the embryo/fetus.

This quote would sum up my belief on the subject:

When medical ethicist Bonnie Steinbock was interviewed by Newsweek and asked the question "So when does life begin?," she answered:

"If we’re talking about life in the biological sense, eggs are alive, sperm are alive. Cancer tumors are alive. For me, what matters is this: When does it have the moral status of a human being? When does it have some kind of awareness of its surroundings? When it can feel pain, for example, because that’s one of the most brute kinds of awareness there could be. And that happens, interestingly enough, just around the time of viability. It certainly doesn't happen with an embryo."I don't share this to try and sway anyone to my view - I understand that people have deep seated beliefs on this and that's ok. But it is worthwhile to recognize where some of the differences of opinion stem from - and that we can have a conversation about it without being cruel or abusive to those who don't share our own view.

The website ReligiousTolerance.org has a section that talks about the varying beliefs of when human personhood begins. Some of you might find it interesting.

BTW, Michelle - how are you doing today? How is the young woman coping? It's such a challenging time...

Michelle said...

Thanks to all for sharing your feelings, comments, personal experiences. I read them all many times.

I'm doing fine. The young woman is struggling but feels this was the right choice. It is such a personal matter, in fact, I can't imagine anything more personal. Even though I will always struggle with her decision, it has nothing to do with me or anyone else.

She and the father discussed it at length, and felt it was the right decision for them. I have to accept her decision and move on.

Anonymous said...

You guys need to calm down. I was partly joking about shooting herself and I respect her responses even though I don't entirely agree with her. Reading back on my comment I agree that it sounded harsher than what was meant. Sarcasm doesn't read very well in writing especially in sensitive conversations like these.

I am also impressed by Kate's ability to be respectful. Kate is perfect. And Kaylin it sounds like you should also take a few lessons from Kate if you honestly think you present yourself as an adult who can hold a reasonable conversation.

If you think I am chickenshit, harsh, judgemental, vitriolic, and idiotic then fine. Calling me all these things along with close minded and immature is a little judgemental yourself, it looks like most of us here are guilty of that.

It is easy to say what you really mean when its annonymous and THAT'S THE POINT. Are you really surprised that not everyone leaves their name and life story all over the internet for the whole world to see? By the way I'm not the only anonymous commenter here.

Let me just ask you three questions. I am mostly curious to hear Kristen get off her high horse and answer these.

1. Do you think you have a right to play god?

2. Do you think right and wrong is black and white or should morals fluctuate with situation and circumstance that you yourself created.

3. Why do you hate yourself.

Kristin said...

I'm glad you're feeling a bit better, Michelle. It is hard when it is someone close to you, and you know there will be consequences to the decision. I hope she recognizes this and can be prepared to deal with them.

allicat said...

Michelle, I'm ready for your Day 4 of Annoyance post :)

Kristin said...

I wanted to mention the book J'Neil is reading. It is really a great book, and I think Chris should get a copy of it to save for when Abby hits middle school. It is called "Don't Take Love Lying Down" by Brad Henning.

It is a book about relationships, the differences between guys and girls, and gives lots of facts and stories. It encourages the kids to wait to have sex until they are married and gives all sorts of great reasons. It is a fantastic book. J'Neil couldn't put it down.

He talks about how having sex before marriage often impacts a relationship, he has letters from kids that had sex too early, from kids who got pregnant and married, kids who got pregnant and raised a baby alone, and also several from girls who had abortions, talking about all the consequences the never thought of.

He tells kids stuff they need to hear that either parents are embarrassed to say, or may not even realize they SHOULD be telling their children.

It is a book for both boys and girls -- he has chapters for each ("For Girls Only...") though the information is very helpful for boys and visa versa.

I would recommend that any parent with kids entering middle & high school get it for their children. Brad tells the kids the stuff they need to know that other people just don't tell them.

Kaylyn said...

Anonymous - I personally don't think that it is funny at all, no matter the circumstance, to tell someone that they should kill themself. Not that this is the case here, but sometimes those words are all it takes to push someone over the edge to actually go through with it. You should really be careful when you throw around words like that.

I also don't know why you find the need use sarcasm in a conversation like this. I do think that this is a very serious, and touchy topic. It should not be taken lightly at all.

Also, I can honestly tell you that you are the only one here who is not having a respectful adult conversation. If I remember correctly, you are the one who showed up and started calling people names, and saying they were selfish. Before that everyone else was just stating opinions. So I think that all we were doing was calling you out on the obvious weaknesses that you were bringing to the conversation. It's really easy to pass judgement when no one knows who you are. Simple as that.

I'm pretty sure that no one here thinks they are playing god, and no one here thinks that any answer to this question is black or white.

Anonymous said...

So kaylin, why do you hate yourself? I'm still unsure.

Chris said...

Thanks for the book rec, Kristin. I will have to give that to Abby in the years to come. Right now she is scared to death of boys, so I'm not too worried...yet. :(

I came on here the other day and got very emotional about this subject because I know this person and I saw her recently and was happy for her, I thought she was too. And I saw how upset Michelle and Erica were and it made me pretty emotional. But now that I've calmed down I realize I can't control anyone else. Period. What works for me won't work for them and I have no right to decide for them. I just can't help feeling sad about it because this is a person I know and wish she would choose differently.

And looking back at my own experience when I felt like I was being backed into a corner, I probably wouldn't have gone through with anything, but I am in no place to play God and decide what everyone else should do, no matter how much I disagree. If I would have been pregnant back then, my oldest, Alex would be 20 years old and my life would have looked different at that age, crazy to think about...but at least I had Mike and a family that would have helped..... in time. Not everyone has that.

ANYWAY, I am too, hoping Michelle updates soon. :)

Anonymous, I will say this, I think everyone except Donald Trump hates themselves a little. None of us is perfect or thinks we are anything close to God. We all make huge mistakes and have regrets and would change things about ourselves. Quit hatin, baby.